Curse

Gabs88 · Feb 08, 2012, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Thats pretty cool actually. Was there ever really a point in having 2x Fall backs anyhow? It's rare that you need to run that far without any mobs in between and the speed up just between groups is solid.

Ah btw, why Glyph of Immolation instead of Glyph of Elemental Power? Instant spike on SF?

Ahh, and since you already got an EA fire ele. You could use Mimicry on either a water / earth or air ele as well. As long as they don't have any points in fire they shouldn't be using mimicry at anyone except the EA fire nuker

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 08, 2012, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Why not run the old GvG Mindblast template? You'll also have all the Utility slots you still need for /P or /Mo.

Lanier · Feb 08, 2012, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Outside of AP-MoP player builds, you're missing out on a lot of synergy. The Dervs want you to run Orders, SoH, and now double-cast skills. But running those means moving pretty significantly away from mesmers, spirits, minions, and everything else that's proved particularly effective in the recent past. In short, you'd be looking at a totally different team structure. It would be cool to see this done, but I'm not sure it can be done in a way that really competes.

This is only partially true. In my physway build, I run orders, curses support, SoH, and multiple splinters while still being able to maintain minions and one spirit user. This is all placed on to 5 heroes (with the curses being microed since im not going to put them on my player paragon bar), and then 2 dervs fill out the last 2 slots. I haven't really considered putting double cast spells into the team, but I guess in an ideal version, you would get rid of my player character (which isn't really accomplishing special since I always run just-for-fun builds on him) to create more space for useful skills.

Gabs88 · Feb 08, 2012, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Why not run the old GvG Mindblast template? You'll also have all the Utility slots you still need for /P or /Mo.

More energy then X foe?

HM foes have a LOT

Jeydra · Feb 08, 2012, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Thats pretty cool actually. Was there ever really a point in having 2x Fall backs anyhow? It's rare that you need to run that far without any mobs in between and the speed up just between groups is solid.

Ah btw, why Glyph of Immolation instead of Glyph of Elemental Power? Instant spike on SF?

Ahh, and since you already got an EA fire ele. You could use Mimicry on either a water / earth or air ele as well. As long as they don't have any points in fire they shouldn't be using mimicry at anyone except the EA fire nuker

Screw 2x Fall Backs, I want three. /wrist

About omeganuking with other types of Eles, I did think about that, but as always the other three attribute lines are weak. What good elites are there that's worth supporting with Elemental Attunement?

As for Mind Blast, there's absolutely no need for it since Elemental Attunement does more and provides the needed energy management.

Lanier · Feb 08, 2012, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

More energy then X foe?

HM foes have a LOT

Only HM eles. Non-ele characters don't really have much more energy than normal (which led to frustration for my mesmer when his e-surge would hit for suboptimal damage).

@Jeydra: Maybe Mindburn?

Gabs88 · Feb 09, 2012, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Only HM eles. Non-ele characters don't really have much more energy than normal (which led to frustration for my mesmer when his e-surge would hit for suboptimal damage).

@Jeydra: Maybe Mindburn?

if 5 exhaustion is what you want there's always invoke lol

DiogoSilva · Feb 09, 2012, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

if 5 exhaustion is what you want there's always invoke lol

Mindburn still has the support of Fireball, Liquid Flame, Rodgort's, AND it deals more damage than SF the first seconds (although it has worse AoE). Elemental Attunement should keep energy high enough to make sure Mind Burn is at maximum power, and you'll need 13 e.storage for the same reasons (and to further improve EA).

Xenomortis · Feb 09, 2012, 02:31 PM // 14:31

And through what mechanism do you propose Mind Burn and Elemental Attunement to be fielded on the same bar?
Arcane Mimicry? Really?

Swingline · Feb 09, 2012, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol Swingline just can't accept that SF is a bad skill. No, you cannot stomp one Stone Summit Defender + one Stone Summit Healer in 3-4s with SF. Or if you think you can, upload a video, or some form of screenshot with inherent timing (e.g. you stomp the Monks before "Fall Back!" recharges more than 1/4 of the way). Until then I rest my case.

The point I have to make again is there is no perfect replacement for IL + CL. I also never bashed pre nerf Invoke and I in no way said SF is superior to pre nerf Invoke. I use to use it and loved it but its gone now.

SF wont kill HM SE stone summit groups in 3-4s but it will get the job done provided you bring a form of shutdown. I probably should have worded it better about the 3-4s because you think everything is some sort of contest in SE. Do you really think people venture into SE everyday besides VSF? People do it once for titles then its never seen again and people usually wait till its the zb and do it with peeps. I had your average HM mob from VQs and Missions in mind when I said that along with saying it only on backline groups and I assumed everyone here would get that but I suppose not.

If SF is so bad then why do you have it under notable fire skills on your Ele guide? That seems strange... If it was that bad it wouldn't see play at all but it does.

FoxBat · Feb 09, 2012, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

And through what mechanism do you propose Mind Burn and Elemental Attunement to be fielded on the same bar?
Arcane Mimicry? Really?

Same way Jeydra is putting SF/Attunement on the same bar so, yes.

Vernphos · Feb 09, 2012, 09:09 PM // 21:09

So last night I tried using two SF eles for my heros:

SF
Glow gaze
glyph of lesser energy
aura of restor
fire attunement
leech sig
power drain
Meteor (for KD and for single targets)

So even with SIX energy management skills, they still ran out of energy after 1-2 fights. I was having to stop and let them recharge and I found myself thinking, "why am I not just running mesmers or necros?"

And it wasn't just 2 groups of enemies...I slogged through a whole Vq this way. They just did not use their glyphs and enchantments well and no way am I going to sit and micro them.

I think it could be interesting if you had a Bip in the party, but I usually dont run those.

I never ran invoke, but it has to have been better than this

Swingline · Feb 09, 2012, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vernphos

So last night I tried using two SF eles for my heros:

SF
Glow gaze
glyph of lesser energy
aura of restor
fire attunement
leech sig
power drain
Meteor (for KD and for single targets)

So even with SIX energy management skills, they still ran out of energy after 1-2 fights. I was having to stop and let them recharge and I found myself thinking, "why am I not just running mesmers or necros?"

And it wasn't just 2 groups of enemies...I slogged through a whole Vq this way. They just did not use their glyphs and enchantments well and no way am I going to sit and micro them.

I think it could be interesting if you had a Bip in the party, but I usually dont run those.

I never ran invoke, but it has to have been better than this

I use 3 with fallback and never run into energy problems but then again SF is not the only damage I run in the group. You should also have cracked armor and Mark of Rodgort somewhere in the group.

Jeydra · Feb 10, 2012, 11:27 AM // 11:27

I have SF under notable skills because it's unique with a potentially useful effect. In fact I'll say now that to say SF is flat out bad is overly strong, because personal experience using the E/Me Arcane Mimicry bar showed that it's quite effective. But SF without Elemental Attunement + Glyph of Immolation is still bad, and waaaaay inferior to pre-nerf Invoke. The two skills are not comparable at all.

I can't see the point in using Mind Burn with Elemental Attunement. What's there to gain? It's not like you can't support occasional Mind Burn use with other skills like Glowing Gaze and GoLE, and it's not like you can support real Mind Burn spam with Elemental Attunement. What's the point?

@Vernphos - from my experiences using similar SF bars with less energy management, I can't see how that runs out of energy. It's bad for damage, but it can't be running out of energy.

Lanier · Feb 10, 2012, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I have SF under notable skills because it's unique with a potentially useful effect. In fact I'll say now that to say SF is flat out bad is overly strong, because personal experience using the E/Me Arcane Mimicry bar showed that it's quite effective. But SF without Elemental Attunement + Glyph of Immolation is still bad, and waaaaay inferior to pre-nerf Invoke. The two skills are not comparable at all.

I can't see the point in using Mind Burn with Elemental Attunement. What's there to gain? It's not like you can't support occasional Mind Burn use with other skills like Glowing Gaze and GoLE, and it's not like you can support real Mind Burn spam with Elemental Attunement. What's the point?

Well of course you wouldn't use the skills together

. I threw the idea out there to use instead of a dual attunement fire build, since supposedly heroes dont use rodgorts well.

Follower Of Bath · Feb 11, 2012, 04:55 AM // 04:55

It seems to me that just replacing the two exhaustion skills with Thunderclap/Teinai's Wind could work really well. Does it do the same AoE damage as the original probably not, but it does throw in conditions and a free interrupt. As to how the heroes use it idk, but it could synergize with frag mes's and combined with splinter/MoP it would be a big help for melee.
I dont thing running multiple copies would be good, but one seems like a nice fit.

Only question would be can heroes use it correctly?

Aria Frost · Feb 13, 2012, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You can't run more than one of this hero unless you're prepared to micro however, because they will mimic each other's Searing Flames.

Actually, there's a little trick to have multiple SFs mimic EA instead another SF:

set their energy storage spec higher than fire magic (e.g. ES: 12+1+2 FM: 12+2) and they will mimic EA. The drawback ofc, is that they will stop at rank 18 in fire magic instead going up to 20.

From the Arcane Mimicry GW Wiki article:

Quote:

Heroes prioritize which elite they copy as follows:

Elites from the hero's primary profession.
High rank in the relevant attribute.
No Attribute Skills.

Probably BSurge and Thunderclap (both of which provide a bit of AoE damage + utilities) are the nearest replacements to the old Invoke when sticking to air magic.

However, with the latest update (Doublecast skills, Starbust) it looks like eles should be pushed somehow to frontline with PBAoE spells, though I'm still slowly trying to find an effective way...

LexTalionis · Feb 18, 2012, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Seems like we got a new Ritualist, so testing clamor might be viable for you now. I ended up throwing rift off my bars and just using Channeled Strike + Rupture Soul instead. Only issue I have is that Cruel was Daoshen gives heroes idiotic Ai where they run right up next to monster groups. Lee Sa would probably be safer.

Heroes use Rupture Soul very very well.

Jeydra · Feb 18, 2012, 10:57 AM // 10:57

@Aria Frost - it's hard to spec that. Because you must have Energy Storage higher than Fire, and since dual Superiors is very dangerous, you're stuck with at best 15 Energy Storage / 14 Fire using two Majors. Elemental Attunement increases Fire to 16, two points off 18 Fire, and just missing 8s burning. Glyph of Elemental Power compensates, but it's strictly inferior to Glyph of Immolation on such a bar. Incidentally Glyph of Immolation hits a breakpoint too at 18 Fire, so that's another loss.

That said, I think I can safely say that the new E/Me SF + EA Ele is very effective. It can't run /P with Fall Back, EA isn't up all the time, etc, but the damage output is very strong. I can't usually have two of them (what, two E/Me SF + EA and then another Elementalist holding the EA?), so it's not that important.

Search for a good Invoke replacement when Fire isn't viable though ... goes on. Not sure about the new Ritualist, but once I unlock him I'll try out Channeling magic.

Gabs88 · Feb 18, 2012, 12:38 PM // 12:38

rofl, getting my hopes up about new AI patch again xD But no